Let's Start Your Real Estate Journey
May 17, 2024

Boosting Realtor Efficiency: Real Estate Tech with Chris Heller

What if you could spend less time on back-office work and more time building client relationships? Chris Heller, CEO of OJO and Movoto, discusses how real estate tech is transforming the industry. Join us to explore how technology can make your realtor tasks more efficient and effective.

Real Estate Tech is at the forefront of this enlightening episode with Chris Heller, CEO of OJO and Movoto. Discover how Lever by Movoto is transforming the daily operations of real estate agents, making their jobs more efficient and effective. We delve into the specifics of leveraging technology for marketing, lead generation, and transaction management. Chris shares invaluable insights on how to maintain a personal touch while utilizing advanced tools. Learn about the integration of AI in real estate, the importance of database management, and how to keep up with industry changes. Tune in to get answers to your pressing questions about modern real estate practices and gain practical tips to enhance your business.

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The Texas Real Estate & Finance Podcast with Mike Mills
Boosting Realtor Efficiency: Real Estate Tech with Chris Heller
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Business Entrepreneurship

What if you could spend less time on back-office work and more time building client relationships? Chris Heller, CEO of OJO and Movoto, discusses how real estate tech is transforming the industry. Join us to explore how technology can make your realtor tasks more efficient and effective.

Real Estate Tech is at the forefront of this enlightening episode with Chris Heller, CEO of OJO and Movoto. Discover how Lever by Movoto is transforming the daily operations of real estate agents, making their jobs more efficient and effective. We delve into the specifics of leveraging technology for marketing, lead generation, and transaction management. Chris shares invaluable insights on how to maintain a personal touch while utilizing advanced tools. Learn about the integration of AI in real estate, the importance of database management, and how to keep up with industry changes. Tune in to get answers to your pressing questions about modern real estate practices and gain practical tips to enhance your business.

Key Takeaway 1: Lever by Movoto Streamlines Realtor Tasks

Lever by Movoto is a revolutionary platform designed to make real estate professionals' lives easier. By automating routine tasks such as marketing, lead generation, and transaction management, it allows agents to focus more on building relationships with clients. This tool is a game-changer for those looking to boost their efficiency and effectiveness in the real estate industry.

Key Takeaway 2: The Importance of CRM Systems

Effective database management is crucial for any real estate business. Chris Heller emphasizes the role of CRM systems in organizing and maintaining client information, which is vital for marketing and follow-ups. A well-maintained CRM can significantly enhance an agent’s productivity by ensuring no potential leads or opportunities are missed.

Key Takeaway 3: Integrating AI in Real Estate

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is becoming increasingly important in real estate innovation. Chris discusses how AI can assist in analyzing documents, automating responses, and even providing real-time advice to clients. This integration helps agents provide better service while saving time and reducing the likelihood of human error.

Key Takeaway 4: Balancing Technology and Personal Touch

While technology is essential, maintaining a personal touch remains crucial in real estate. Chris Heller advises agents to use technology to handle administrative tasks, allowing them more time to engage personally with clients. This balance ensures that clients receive personalized service, which is key to building trust and long-term relationships.

Key Takeaway 5: Adapting to Industry Changes

The real estate industry is constantly evolving, and staying ahead of these changes is essential for success. Chris highlights the importance of being adaptable and open to new technologies and methods. By embracing innovation, realtors can not only improve their efficiency but also offer enhanced services that meet the ever-changing needs of their clients.

TIME STAMPED SUMMARY

0:00 - 0:30: Introduction

  • Mike Mills introduces the podcast episode, discussing the importance of staying efficient and effective in the real estate business.
  • Introduction of guest Chris Heller, CEO of OJO and Movoto, and a brief overview of his extensive experience in the real estate industry.

 

0:31 - 3:00: Chris Heller’s Background

  • Chris shares his journey and how he became CEO of OJO and Movoto.
  • Discussion about the founding of OJO in Austin, Texas, and its growth amidst the city’s tech boom.

 

3:01 - 7:00: Austin Real Estate Market Trends

  • Mike and Chris discuss the booming real estate market in Austin, its rapid growth, and market stability.
  • Insights into the adjustments in home prices and the role of technology in managing these changes.

 

7:01 - 10:30: Introduction to Lever by Movoto

  • Chris explains the main features of Lever by Movoto and how it simplifies the workload for real estate agents.
  • Overview of how Lever helps with marketing, lead generation, database management, and transaction management.

 

10:31 - 14:00: Importance of CRM Systems

  • Detailed discussion on the role of CRM systems in organizing client information and enhancing productivity.
  • Chris emphasizes the need for effective database management and how it impacts an agent’s success.

 

14:01 - 18:00: AI and Automation in Real Estate

  • Chris talks about the integration of AI in real estate, including its applications and benefits.
  • Examples of how AI can streamline processes, enhance service delivery, and provide real-time assistance.

 

18:01 - 21:30: Balancing Technology and Personal Touch

  • Mike and Chris discuss the importance of maintaining a personal touch while using technology.
  • Strategies for realtors to keep their client interactions personal despite automation and technology integration.

 

21:31 - 25:00: Adapting to Industry Changes

  • Chris highlights the need for real estate agents to adapt to technological advancements and industry changes.
  • The benefits of staying updated with the latest tools and trends in real estate to remain competitive.

 

25:01 - 29:00: Challenges in Real Estate Technology

  • Discussion about the challenges faced by realtors in adopting new technologies.
  • Tips on overcoming these challenges to enhance efficiency and effectiveness in daily operations.

 

29:01 - 33:00: Future of Real Estate Innovation

  • Chris shares his vision for the future of real estate and the role of innovation.
  • Predictions on upcoming trends and technologies that will shape the real estate industry.

 

33:01 - 38:00: Practical Advice for Realtors

  • Chris provides practical tips for realtors looking to leverage technology to improve their business.
  • Importance of continuous learning, adaptation, and utilizing technology to streamline tasks.

 

38:01 - 43:00: Insights into Movoto and Lever Integration

  • Chris delves deeper into how Movoto and Lever integrate to provide a seamless experience for agents and clients.
  • The role of top teams and individual agents in utilizing these platforms effectively.

 

43:01 - 50:00: Navigating Real Estate Transactions with Technology

  • Discussion on how technology can assist in managing real estate transactions more efficiently.
  • Chris shares insights on the human touch required in certain aspects of transactions despite automation.

 

50:01 - 55:00: Addressing Industry Challenges and Changes

  • Chris talks about the broader challenges in the real estate industry and how agents can navigate these changes.
  • Importance of providing value and maintaining professionalism in a tech-driven market.

 

55:01 - 60:00: Conclusion and Call to Action

  • Mike summarizes the key points discussed in the episode.
  • Encourages listeners to explore Lever by Movoto and other innovative tools.
  • Invitation to follow Chris Heller and stay updated with real estate technology trends.

 

 

Transcript
Mike Mills
(0:12) Well, hello, World Wide Web. (0:14) So, mortgage rates are starting to come down, and that is great news for those of us still surviving in this real estate game that we all know and love. (0:21) And with the summer buying season at our doorstep, the question becomes, how do you plan to keep your business efficient and effective without losing the personal touch with your clients?
 
(0:30) Well, today we hope to provide that answer. (0:32) Welcome to Texas Real Estate and Finance Podcast. (0:34) I'm your host, Mike Mills, a North Texas mortgage banker with Geneva Financial.
 
(0:37) And when I'm not rambling into this microphone, my team and I help you and your clients navigate the loan process like Tom Brady navigated his most recent Netflix roast. (0:46) Nice and easy without breaking a sweat. (0:49) We're making sure that your clients have a great experience and that you get eight more referrals out of the deal.
 
(0:54) Give us a try, and we'll show you how to do it. (0:56) Now, today's episode is all about how to take your real estate game to the next level using all the technology tools at your fingertips these days. (1:03) Our world's changing rapidly with new regulations, new software systems, and AI becoming a bigger and bigger part of our daily lives.
 
(1:10) So how do you manage all of this without going insane but keeping that close connection with your clients? (1:16) Well, today we're going to show you some tools that are easily accessible and can change how you operate your business day to day. (1:22) But before we start, if today's episode gets a little something going in you and helps you take those next steps in your real estate skills, please share it with a friend.
 
(1:31) We keep chugging along each and every week, adding new listeners and more downloads, and you guys are a big reason why. (1:36) So like, comment, subscribe, and share this podcast with someone that you think would benefit from what we bring to you each and every week. (1:42) I can't thank you guys enough for all the support, and we're just starting to see what a little community is capable of.
 
(1:47) So today, we welcome to the podcast a man with 35 years of experience in the real estate industry. (1:53) He's a best-selling author, the former CEO of Keller Williams that was integral in transforming Keller into the tech-focused real estate brokerage that it is today. (2:02) He's been a licensed realtor for 35 years, so he knows what it's like to be in the trenches.
 
(2:06) And now, he's the president of Austin-based Ojo and Motivo. (2:11) I knew I was going to mess that up as we go. (2:14) It's a real estate platform using the latest technology to revolutionize and manage your real estate business, and he's here to tell us all of his secrets.
 
(2:21) So please welcome to the podcast Mr. Chris Heller. (2:23) Hey, Chris. (2:24) Hey, Mike.
 
(2:25) How are you? (2:26) I'm doing awesome, man. (2:27) How are you today?
 
(2:28) You're down there in Austin, Texas. (2:30) I think it's like it's becoming the tech hub of the world. (2:33) We're like a new Silicon Valley.
Chris Heller
(2:36) Yeah, those buildings behind me used to be or is what used to be Rainey Street, which used to be a lot of little old houses. (2:44) Now, it's skyscrapers.
Mike Mills
(2:47) Yes, it's growing up massively, and it seems like, like I said, it's becoming like the tech capital of the country, or at least it's developing into that. (2:54) Did that play a bit of a role of you guys moving there?
Chris Heller
(2:57) No. (2:58) The company was founded here, and I think it was founded in 2016. (3:07) And so it's really been, I think it's just a coincidence, this happened to be about that time where you saw not only all the Silicon Valley companies, but a lot of other companies built big operations here, and some of them moved their headquarters here.
 
(3:22) So it really has become like a second Silicon Valley.
Mike Mills
(3:27) Yeah, it's exploded. (3:30) And there's been obviously a ton of people moving there. (3:33) And it's funny, anytime I get on Twitter and I see the doomers of the real estate market talking about house prices crashing and everything falling, which is completely not the case, they often use Austin as an example of this, and they'll show Austin prices.
 
(3:50) And it's one of those things where you go, okay, well, you can only have a boom for such a period of time and prices skyrocket the way they did without having a bit of a correction. (4:01) And especially when you're talking about homes, they'll show a house that was listed for $2.6 million, and now it's only down to $2 million. (4:08) Like, oh my gosh, it's falling apart.
 
(4:09) I'm like, let's settle down a little bit and realize where you came from versus where you are, because the prices have certainly adjusted, but they're not crashing by any stretch of the imagination.
Chris Heller
(4:19) No, and you hit the nail on the head. (4:22) I mean, things like in this market, things went up just at a crazy rate, and that's not sustainable. (4:28) And there's always adjustments in markets, and there's always cycles in markets.
Mike Mills
(4:32) Yeah, and you can't pick the biggest boom markets and say that those are the ones, because I can't think of another market in the country when you look at a city like Austin that exploded the way it did over the last three years.
Chris Heller
(4:42) Yeah, I agree.
Mike Mills
(4:44) All right, so tell us a little bit about your company. (4:46) So we talked a little bit about this ahead of time before you got on, and you've got kind of a web here of companies kind of bound together. (4:55) But Movoto is really the forward-facing part for the consumer and the realtor.
 
(5:05) So tell us a little bit about what Movoto does and how these companies kind of lever each other and integrate.
Chris Heller
(5:11) Yeah, so Ojo is the parent company. (5:14) In 2020, middle of 2020, of the pandemic, we were crazy enough to raise a bunch of money and acquire Movoto.com. (5:26) Movoto.com is a search portal that's been around for over a dozen years at the time, and we, since 2020, built that to the fifth-largest portal. (5:39) So Zillow, Realtor, Holmes, Redfin, and then Movoto is number five. (5:45) So we operate the fifth-largest portal. (5:48) It's the largest privately-owned portal.
 
(5:49) All the others are public companies. (5:52) And we take those consumers. (5:53) They're looking to buy, sell, or some of them just looking for financing help to refire HELOCs.
 
(6:01) And then we introduce them to the appropriate service professional, a real estate team, a real estate agent, a lender, for them to get their needs met. (6:11) So at a high level, that's what we do. (6:15) At a detailed level, we could spend the rest of the day talking about, but we partner with top-producing real estate teams in every city.
 
(6:24) We have another platform specifically for solo agents where we help them increase their productivity significantly. (6:31) And we do both of that with the introduction of consumers that are looking to buy and sell homes.
Mike Mills
(6:39) Now, that company that integrates for the realtor side, that's called Lever, correct?
Chris Heller
(6:43) Yeah, that's for solo agents, for individual agents. (6:46) Lever is really a service platform where we take individual agents that they don't want to join a team. (6:54) They don't want to give up their identity.
 
(6:55) They probably aren't going to go build a team, but they want to do more. (7:00) And they either don't know how or they don't want to do the things they need to to be able to do more. (7:05) And that's where we come in.
 
(7:06) With Lever, we take care of all those things so they have more time to spend with buyers and sellers. (7:12) We handle their database, their CRM for them, their marketing, their transaction management, lead gen, and provide training so that they can... (7:21) We put all those pieces together and make sure they work very tightly, their campaigns are set up, the marketing makes sense, and handle that all for them so that they can just spend their time being in front of buyers and sellers.
 
(7:33) And when we do that, we usually see their productivity go up.
Mike Mills
(7:37) So you've obviously been doing this for a long time. (7:39) You've been in the real estate business for 35 years as an agent yourself, running a team, doing all this kind of thing. (7:45) The database aspect of what you guys do, I think is a very important piece of any agent's business.
 
(7:53) And I often think it kind of goes overlooked a little bit because agents spend so much time of their day meeting people, going to events and functions, and spending time with friends and building their sphere and trying to get in front of people as often as possible that they lose... (8:08) Because most people that are sales oriented, we're personal, we want to be amongst people, we want to be in the crowd. (8:15) We don't want to sit at a computer and put in data in order for our management system to go out and market to those people.
 
(8:22) But can you speak a little bit to the importance of that and why it is such a crucial piece, especially these days, when trying to build your clientele, add new people to your network, and use those kind of technology tools that can really kind of develop your business for the rest of your career?
Chris Heller
(8:39) Yeah, so as an agent, you're either just doing things by chance, by happenstance, like friends and family, your neighbors, some close associates that you help them with their real estate needs, or you're building and running a business. (8:56) And when you build and run a business, it absolutely requires that you have a database of prospects. (9:02) So past prospects and past clients, current prospects, people that you can be marketing to on a regular basis to become top of mind, to get referral and repeat business from.
 
(9:13) And so that is the key to any agent's business. (9:16) It's the key to any insurance agent's business or a loan officer's business, right? (9:21) It's anyone in sales that is responsible for their own book of business, has to be able to continually build that database and then effectively market to that database.
 
(9:33) Agents, they usually fall into, they're all across the spectrum, but the two ends of the extreme is what we often see, where they either don't do anything with their database, or they spend all their time monkeying with it and never actually doing business. (9:50) And so we don't want agents to do either one of those. (9:54) We want them to, if they're part of Lever, we're going to set up for them.
 
(9:59) We're going to make sure it's set up the right way. (10:01) We're going to make sure it's running the right way. (10:03) And then it's just on them to do the things they need to do, which is to have the interactions and to build the relationships.
Mike Mills
(10:10) And all they have to do really is just put the information into the system, right?
Chris Heller
(10:14) Yeah. (10:16) Oftentimes they have it in the system, but it's not organized. (10:19) It's not categorized correctly.
 
(10:21) It's not tagged correctly. (10:22) It's not sorted the right way. (10:24) So the first thing we do is help them do that.
Mike Mills
(10:29) That's where the training piece comes in that you guys provide for that, right?
Chris Heller
(10:32) It's like a junk drawer. (10:33) We come in and organize it for them. (10:36) Yes.
 
(10:37) And then we make sure that they have the appropriate marketing and all the assets they need to be sending out the touches and effectively reaching out to people so that they start to see a return from that database and start to get business and referrals from it.
Mike Mills
(10:56) Now, I'm personally a big believer in systems and processes because I think that when you go about your day, if you have certain things built into your day that is something that you do on a consistent basis that you've kind of designed and kind of programmed your life essentially for a period of time, that you're much more likely to have success on completing those things. (11:15) So as a 35-year veteran doing this, having a team, what have you found? (11:22) What kind of systems or processes have you put in place with your agents to kind of help them make this a focus on developing their database?
 
(11:29) Because again, I know it's not the strong part for everybody's world, but at the same time, it's so impactful in the long term of your real estate career that if you can really have a tight managed database that you can effectively market to, it can really change and build a career for your entire life. (11:49) So what have you kind of seen with your team that you've kind of put in place to help?
Chris Heller
(11:54) Yeah, I agree with you. (11:56) It's critical to building something, right? (11:58) If you want to just go through month to month, year to year, and doing whatever comes your way or whatever you bump into, then you don't need anything.
 
(12:09) But if you want to get a dividend off the investment of time and energy, that means you have to be building something. (12:17) And the great news with our business, with mortgage business, with insurance business, almost anything that involves sales is that if you do it right, there is momentum that you can build. (12:31) There is a snowball effect where it can start to build on itself and gain momentum.
 
(12:35) But that means, yes, you have to have great systems and processes. (12:39) And you should have them for everything. (12:41) I was speaking to a group of agents yesterday, and we're on the topic of the great equalizer is time.
 
(12:52) We all have the same amount of time in the day, days of the week, weeks of the month, months in a year. (12:58) No one's figured out a cheat code to have more.
Mike Mills
(13:01) My saying is time is the most democratic thing on the planet because everybody gets exactly the same amount no matter what.
Chris Heller
(13:08) So then the question becomes, okay, how do you become the most efficient and the most effective with the amount of time you have or the amount of time you're going to spend? (13:16) Efficiency is all about systems and processes. (13:20) So what systems can you put into place to create more efficiency?
 
(13:23) What processes can you put in place to create more efficiencies? (13:27) What decisions can you remove so you're making fewer decisions and things are just starting to happen? (13:35) Effectiveness is a different thing.
 
(13:37) Effectiveness is skills. (13:38) Okay, how can I be more skilled at my presentations? (13:44) How can I be more skilled at my abduction handling?
 
(13:46) How can I be more skilled in my sales techniques, my sales languages? (13:51) And those are things that just help you get more hits given the finite number of at-bats you have. (14:01) If we use a sports analogy or a baseball analogy since we're in baseball season, I guess actually we're in baseball.
Mike Mills
(14:07) We're in all the seasons right now.
Chris Heller
(14:08) We're in all the seasons right now, almost.
Mike Mills
(14:11) That's why I got the Mav shirt on. (14:12) We're in second round of playoffs. (14:14) We're up three to two, one more game.
 
(14:16) We get to the Western Conference Finals. (14:17) I'm excited.
Chris Heller
(14:19) Yeah, watched a little bit last night. (14:24) The at-bats are the opportunities we have to meet with buyers and sellers. (14:29) The processes are all the things that get us to that at-bat.
 
(14:34) It's the monthly touches that we have. (14:36) The automation that we have going on to reach out to people, to solicit engagement from them, to solicit referrals from them. (14:45) Those are the things that you want to really leverage technology for because technology does some of those things really, really well.
Mike Mills
(14:52) Well, speaking of that, you were the CEO of one of the largest real estate brokerages in the country for a number of years over at Keller Williams. (15:02) You played a pretty big role in shifting them from the old world to the new world and really starting to leverage technology within the brokerage on a large scale. (15:15) Tell me about that experience.
 
(15:16) What was it that you saw when you got there and then what did you start to implement and then see the fruit from once you put a lot of those processes in place?
Chris Heller
(15:26) Yeah, when I got there, I was there to build Keller Williams globally, to go into other countries. (15:32) One of the first things, there are a lot of things I had to solve for building companies in other countries, but one of them was technology. (15:40) How are we going to deliver our value prop in another part of the world?
 
(15:48) How are we going to set up that partner in that country to be able to deliver the services and the tools that we had? (15:55) It can't be done without technology. (15:57) I immediately realized that we were not prepared for that.
 
(16:02) In fact, the company itself had been around for over 25 years at that time and had a lot of legacy systems, a lot of legacy technology. (16:21) The first thing we had to do was to modernize it and to bring it. (16:26) As I switched roles from the president of the worldwide division to the CEO of the company, I brought in people that really understood technology at a high level.
 
(16:40) I've been involved in real estate technology since 2000 when I had a technology company back then, but I'm not a technologist. (16:49) I understand it.
Mike Mills
(16:52) You understand the importance of it, but you're not exactly the one coding up the system.
Chris Heller
(16:57) We're going to go code and build it.
Mike Mills
(16:59) It takes all kinds. (17:01) The guy out there building the code, he doesn't exactly have the vision to see what it can do. (17:05) He just knows what it actually does in that moment.
Chris Heller
(17:08) I hired in a lot of people, chief innovation officer, chief product officer, chief technology officer. (17:16) We worked really hard to sunset as many of the legacy systems as possible to connect the systems, streamline things, to have a strong data layer to be able to benefit from the data that we had and the data that we're aggregating. (17:35) Then on top of that, then you can start to build things.
 
(17:39) That's where the level we got to when I left to pursue some other things. (17:46) It was necessity, things we needed to do. (17:50) Also, it was the right time.
 
(17:53) Technology was really, especially in our industry, was really starting to advance at a fast level. (18:00) The things that agents and brokerages did for decades with marginal improvements in technology started to advance very quickly. (18:11) We're able to do things and help agents do things to become a lot more efficient, a lot more effective.
 
(18:15) The things an agent can do now from a marketing standpoint, from a database management standpoint, to building new relationships, to deepening the relationships they have, all using technology is fantastic.
Mike Mills
(18:29) When you were going through this transition, because we see this a lot on the mortgage side for sure. (18:35) Then when I talk to agents every day, especially because I use AI a ton, and I am a big proponent of it. (18:42) I try to help people, show them how to use it in their business because it's going to change everything, really.
 
(18:49) But there's always pushback. (18:52) There's always, well, I don't want to get into that, or I don't have time to learn that, or this is the way I've always done it, or that's my favorite. (19:00) Well, this is how we've always done it, so we're going to keep doing it that way.
 
(19:02) When you were at Keller and you were trying to bring in these new systems and processes to what you guys were doing to scale it, what kind of pushback did you get? (19:11) Then how did you combat that? (19:15) How did you keep that from permeating through everybody else?
 
(19:19) Because anytime change occurs, there's always going to be those naysayers that don't want any part of it, and when you're trying to spur that along, you've got to keep that, kind of minimize as much as possible.
Chris Heller
(19:33) You're never going to find a leader in any company, in any industry, in any field that you're going to hear those words come out of their mouths. (19:44) Oh, this is the way we've always done it, or this is what I like. (19:46) Those are the ones that become dinosaurs.
 
(19:50) They don't last very long. (19:54) Fortunately, I had an owner of the company in Gary Keller who does not think that way and has very much of a growth mindset and learning base, as am I. (20:12) Seeing how technology was advancing and how it was impacting consumer behavior and understanding that for a service provider, you have to be able to, at the very least, keep up with consumer behavior, if not exceed their behavior or their expectations.
 
(20:28) Because when behavior changes and behavior keeps growing or you see how the direction of behavior is going, along with that are expectations. (20:40) Before Amazon, we were all completely fine with buying something online and having to fill out all our information, my address, my billing address, my credit card information. (20:53) Now, we've become spoiled.
 
(20:57) Our expectations are you go to a site and you want to buy something and they ask you for all that stuff. (21:01) You're like, I can't believe I got to fill all this in. (21:03) I can't believe they don't have this.
Mike Mills
(21:05) Why didn't Google just put it in there? (21:07) Should they just put it in there? (21:08) You have everything.
Chris Heller
(21:11) Because we're so used to being able to do that on Amazon. (21:14) Our expectations as consumers keep getting elevated based on how technology advances. (21:22) As service providers, you want to be able to keep up or exceed your consumer's expectations.
 
(21:28) If not, your value proposition can be dramatically diminished.
Mike Mills
(21:33) From a realtor's point of view too, nowadays, especially because when involved in, you're filling out contracts, you're doing seller's disclosures, you are gathering data from your clients on many levels. (21:45) To make that process as simple and easy as possible is going to put you in another echelon of professionals compared to everybody else who you're having to sit there and fill out a form or do a Google Doc or whatever. (21:57) What have you guys over at Movoto within your real estate portal, what have y'all built out to help make that process easier so that way the realtor can spend more time getting to know their clients and getting that personal touch versus all the technical needs that have to happen in any transaction to speed that along?
Chris Heller
(22:20) We're lucky because we get to partner with the top teams in the country. (22:25) We have about 300 top teams that we're currently partnering with and growing. (22:29) When I say top teams, you're like the best of the best.
 
(22:33) These teams have already figured that out. (22:36) That's part of how they became who they are. (22:38) On the individual agent side, those individual agents are either dependent upon their broker providing all those things, which is really hard for a brokerage to do.
 
(22:48) Quite frankly, I don't know if that is what they should be trying to do or they have to figure it out on their own. (22:55) That's where our lever platform is so appealing to individual agents because if they don't want to figure it out on their own or they don't like doing it or they can't do it and they don't want to go join a team or build a team, we help them do those. (23:11) In those five areas of their database, their training, their leads, their transactions, and their marketing.
 
(23:21) When we're helping them with all those five areas, that really frees them up a lot to where they then can spend their time building new relationships or deepening the ones they have or hopefully both so that they have a business that's actually growing from year to year.
Mike Mills
(23:38) Do you feel like Lever's been able to, I mean, is the transaction coordinator a necessity any longer with a lot of this stuff that's been innovated or do you think that that role still has a purpose in today's transactions?
Chris Heller
(23:51) There's a lot of things that we leverage automation for in our industry. (23:58) There's certain things that still take the human touch. (24:01) It still takes a human (24:04) to be able to talk to a buyer, for example, (24:08) about the repair requests (24:10) and what they should ask for, (24:13) what they could ask for (24:14) or help them negotiate those aspects with the seller (24:17) or to keep things in perspective (24:18) so that people don't get positional (24:21) or judgmental about the other party (24:25) and then all of a sudden they're not moving forward (24:28) when they really should be because they've-
Mike Mills
(24:30) An incredible personal transaction (24:31) and a lot of personal feelings get involved (24:33) with them on a regular basis, so yes.
Chris Heller
(24:36) Especially during the transaction, right? (24:38) That's when emotions and stress are at their highest levels. (24:42) So having people involved in those areas, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
 
(24:51) I'm not going to say it's never going to change, but not soon. (24:55) I think where you'll see being able to use machine learning or artificial intelligence to analyze documents and to complete documents and to more automate the process of who's getting what when and making sure it's being done on time and things aren't falling through the crack. (25:15) We'll continue to see those things happen and those are all good things and positive things.
Mike Mills
(25:21) So speaking of that, how much have you guys worked in AI or either just the basic machine learning or the- What's the word I'm looking for? (25:31) The chatbots. (25:32) How have y'all built that into your system or have you yet or do you have plans to kind of start to add that at a greater level?
Chris Heller
(25:40) Yeah, so it's interesting. (25:42) And when the company started in 2016, I was introduced to the company in 2016 and 2017 became an advisor and an investor in the company and then was asked to be on the board and then eventually joined the company in a full-time capacity in 2019.
Mike Mills
(26:01) It pulled you in. (26:02) You couldn't stay away.
Chris Heller
(26:05) I was at Loan Depot. (26:09) One of the largest lenders in the country is the CEO of their sister company called Mellow Home. (26:14) Oh, wow, okay.
 
(26:15) It's been a year and a half on your side of the business.
Mike Mills
(26:19) Yes, yes.
Chris Heller
(26:20) I tell people I learned more, but being inside a mortgage company, I learned more about the mortgage industry in a year and a half than I had in 30 years of dealing with mortgage companies every day.
Mike Mills
(26:32) Yeah, once you pull the curtain behind or pull the curtain back and you see the wizard working in his little cave back there, you get an idea of how all this stuff kind of fits together and it's managed chaos.
Chris Heller
(26:45) Yeah, especially when it's being done at scale like some of these really large companies have. (26:53) How did we get off on that tangent?
Mike Mills
(26:55) You were talking about adding AI when you joined the company.
Chris Heller
(26:59) Oh, yeah, so when I first got involved with the company, time means everything. (27:06) We were probably ahead of our time because we actually developed and had a lot of patents around artificial intelligence and an artificially intelligent real estate assistant or advisor via SMS. A chatbot on steroids. (27:23) Yeah.
 
(27:24) Where consumers could interact with Ojo and in real time get responses, have conversational AI. (27:30) And if the machine couldn't understand the word or the phrase or the question, then that immediately went to a human that could jump in and help that. (27:40) And all the while, the machine would be learning.
 
(27:42) And then we used it also, we used AI early on for image recognition on photos and attributes of the home where we were able to have over 1,300 different attributes of any home that someone could search by. (27:59) Like anything as obscure as shower curtains. (28:07) I have to have a house with shower curtains.
 
(28:09) I don't like shower, or the opposite, right? (28:11) I mean, we could, because of understanding the images, be able to pull properties and show someone just the properties with the attributes they were looking for.
Mike Mills
(28:19) This was how long ago?
Chris Heller
(28:20) This was in 2017, 18, 19. (28:26) And then in 2020, when we bought movota.com, without going into all the details, things happened very quickly. (28:38) And at the time that we bought movota.com, all the consumers they were generating on their site were being sold to a competitor. (28:47) And when we bought them, that stopped. (28:49) And now we had all these consumers. (28:51) So we immediately had to sort of change our focus on what we were doing and build all the piping and the processes and the technology to be able to take those consumers and interview them to the right, excuse me, and introduce them to the right agent at the right time.
 
(29:08) And that took all our attention, all our effort. (29:11) And we continue to spend all our time on that. (29:13) So the acquisition sort of pulled us away from what we were focused on early on, put us on a different path.
 
(29:19) Wouldn't change anything. (29:22) It's just interesting that the timing was the way that it turned out. (29:30) I'm not answering your quick question.
 
(29:32) So we still use AI and machine learning in a lot of ways. (29:37) Most of those are behind the scenes where the consumer doesn't necessarily understand that we learn from what they're doing and then are able to serve them up things so that we use it in assessing how effective the agents and the teams are and how we match, again, the consumer with the right agent at the right time.
Mike Mills
(30:00) So if you were starting your own real estate brokerage today and with all the tools that you know that are out there available to an individual agent or even a team, what do you feel like is the most essential pieces that you need to have in order to truly build your business and be able to touch as many people as possible? (30:21) What would you focus on?
Chris Heller
(30:25) It's not just one thing, right? (30:27) Because you need the connected pieces. (30:33) It's like any piece of machinery, right?
 
(30:36) You can't just have the gears. (30:39) You need the crankshaft and the fuel and everything else. (30:44) The pieces that you have to have, whether you're an agent, team, brokerage, you have to have the database, right?
 
(30:50) You have to have that CRM that has the right type of functionality for what you're going to do or how you're going to operate your business so that you can market to those people in an effective way and use it to build new relationships also. (31:05) And then marketing is the other piece, right? (31:07) You have to have a marketing platform so that you're able to deliver things of value.
 
(31:12) It used to be all you had to do was stay in touch with your consumers, right? (31:17) But now we all are getting just completely inundated with information and offerings all the time. (31:28) And in our industry, there's more and more options for consumers than there's ever been before.
 
(31:32) Different ways of buying a home, different ways of selling homes. (31:37) And so as an agent, if you want to stay relevant, you have to be able to offer them things of value and you need to be the ones that are delivering those new things and those new options to them. (31:48) Because if not, they're going to get it somewhere else.
 
(31:50) So being able to market effectively and market things of value is another key piece. (31:57) Transaction management is also a necessary function, right? (32:00) We have to be able to do that.
 
(32:03) And those are sort of like the three core components that you needed yesterday, you need them today, you're going to need them tomorrow.
Mike Mills
(32:12) What about, so on the database side of things again, I often find, when I talk to folks about database management and how to use it, that they get overwhelmed because these CRMs these days have so many bells and whistles and so many things that you can do within them. (32:30) And if there's 100% usage in there, you might actually be able to utilize 5% of what they're actually capable of. (32:39) Most agents, at least.
 
(32:41) So how do you get around that? (32:43) Or how do you make that a focus to where you can fully utilize? (32:47) Because a lot of these tech tools, they come with so many things that it's difficult and almost overwhelming for people sometimes to be able to fully understand all the uses that are available to them.
 
(32:57) So what's a shortcut or how do you get around that problem so you can use those tools to their fullest ability?
Chris Heller
(33:07) I think what you're describing is completely accurate. (33:11) And I think it's a function of agents not knowing what they should do and rather wondering or asking what can they do or what can't. (33:21) Because there's a large number of ways to do that.
 
(33:25) I was going to say an infinite, but I don't think it's infinite. (33:27) There's probably a finite number. (33:28) But there is a large number of ways of doing things.
 
(33:31) And my advice to any agent is figure out what you want to do. (33:40) It might be as simple as, hey, I want to email the people that know me twice a month. (33:46) I want to leave them a voice message once a month.
 
(33:48) I want to send them a letter once a month. (33:51) Here's the things I want to do.
Mike Mills
(33:54) Build your system. (33:54) That's a system. (33:55) You've got to build a system.
Chris Heller
(33:56) And then you figure out how to make the technology do those things for you. (34:02) And the good news is almost every CRM does all those things. (34:06) You don't need it to do everything.
 
(34:07) You need it to do the things that you want it to do. (34:10) Now, once you've mastered that and you've set that up, then you can start adding on additional things or utilize more functionality. (34:18) But it's not about whether you're using 5% of it or 95% of it.
 
(34:22) It's whether you're using it for 100% of the things that you want it to do that you determined that you need to do to stay relevant, to stay top of mind, to stay ahead of expectations and deliver a lot of value. (34:41) To your point, you can get lost in it. (34:44) There's just so much functionality.
 
(34:46) But you don't need to know all the functionality. (34:48) You just need to know how to do the things you want to do. (34:50) That's why when people ask me, what's the best CRM?
 
(34:52) What CRM should I use? (34:55) My two answers are always the same. (34:59) Whichever one you're going to use is the most important.
 
(35:02) The second is, the one that is most intuitive, it has the simplest functionality for the things you're going to use it for. (35:11) If you're not going to create blog posts and post those all over the place, then one that has that functionality shouldn't be part of the decision process because you're not going to use it for that. (35:25) If you are going to use it for that, then you look at which ones do that the best, which ones do that with the least amount of effort.
Mike Mills
(35:32) It's like getting in your car with a map in front of you and going, I can go anywhere. (35:36) But you've got to have a place that you're trying to get to in order to get the right road to get to the path where you're trying to go. (35:42) That's the importance, like we said in the beginning, of creating processes and systems that are going to operate your day and sitting down and actually thinking about it.
 
(35:50) I think that's probably one of the biggest disconnects for people is that we're all busy. (35:56) Everybody's busy 24-7. (35:58) You wake up, you've got phone calls to make, you've got kids to take to school, you've got meetings to go to, you've got work to accomplish or whatever.
 
(36:04) You don't carve out an hour or two or however long it takes to actually plan what you're going to do. (36:12) Most people just let their day plan it for them. (36:15) It's like as the fires come, we put out the fires and then we look up and we're like, what did I actually get accomplished?
 
(36:20) You have these thoughts in your head of something that you want to do, but you never actually get to it. (36:25) You look up a year later and you're like, I never did that thing because you didn't sit down and go, okay, I got to come up with a plan that I can execute in order to make this happen. (36:33) Without that piece of it, you get lost in the minutia of your day and your day sets everything that you're going to do.
Chris Heller
(36:40) Yeah, that's one of the precise reasons why our leverage agents like being part of our community so much is because we take a lot of those decisions out of their hands, right? (36:51) So because we set that up for them and we get that running on their behalf so they're not thinking about those things. (37:00) And the other thing too is just that decisions, right?
 
(37:02) A lot of times agents spend an inordinate amount of time deciding what they're going to do, what should they do, what shouldn't they do instead of just having a plan where you're not even having to make those decisions.
Mike Mills
(37:15) Yeah, and they don't have to reinvent the wheel because you've got some plans already laid out for them already. (37:20) That's always incredibly helpful. (37:22) On the marketing side of things, where do you think the, and everybody's different, right?
 
(37:29) I don't think there's a one size fits all marketing strategy because it all depends on your personality and your book of business and your location, all those things. (37:38) But just from a general point of view, where do you feel like agents are going to spend, get the most bang for their time focusing on certain marketing activities, especially these days with the advent of social media, AI, all of the opportunities available to you. (37:55) I've been talking a lot lately about getting back into the mailbox because the key sometimes to marketing is going where other people aren't.
 
(38:03) And back when 20 years ago you would open up your mailbox and you'd pull out a stack this huge and it all gets thrown away. (38:10) Today I go to my mailbox and some days I got nothing. (38:12) Other days I've got two or three things.
 
(38:14) Where do you feel like from, you've been running companies for years, this is what you do, where do you feel like is a good place to be as far as your marketing efforts?
Chris Heller
(38:25) I'll answer that two different ways. (38:26) One is the tangible things. (38:29) And the tangible things are, to your point, we see pendulums swing from one extreme to the other.
 
(38:37) There was a time where everyone was door knocking and then no one's door knocking. (38:41) They're all calling. (38:43) And then we see calling's not being effective.
 
(38:45) So now everyone goes to texting. (38:46) And then they go back to door knocking. (38:50) So it's in your area, just looking at, something that I really focused on early on in my career was, and I forget where I heard it or who taught it to me.
 
(39:02) It certainly wasn't an original idea of mine. (39:04) But it was the 180 degree rule. (39:07) Just look at what most of the people are doing and do the exact opposite.
 
(39:11) And that served me really well. (39:14) Because let's face it, most of the agents weren't succeeding at a high, high, high level. (39:18) So why would I want to do what they were doing?
 
(39:20) I felt if I did the opposite, I'd probably fare a lot better. (39:23) And sure enough, that happened. (39:26) So in your given area, just look at what everyone else is doing and then say, okay, well, do I want to be just like everyone else or do I want to try to differentiate myself and do something different?
 
(39:35) So the tangible things are, if you're marketing, and understand who you're marketing to. (39:43) So if you're marketing to the people that know you or the people you know, and you're looking for repeat referral or first time business from them, then you better be doing something other than just staying in front of them. (39:56) That used to work.
 
(39:58) That's not sufficient anymore. (39:59) You need to be delivering things of value. (40:01) So you better be marketing, your marketing better be of value to the person who's consuming that marketing.
 
(40:08) And then the other, if you're doing it for net new business or net new to build net new relationships, then you need to be delivering value but need to be doing it to people that you don't know yet and that don't know you. (40:25) And you want to go to where there's the biggest concentration of them. (40:31) And that's going to be on social media, on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, the platforms where they're at.
 
(40:39) And so having interesting or valuable information. (40:45) And you don't have to be a genius to figure any of this stuff out. (40:49) You just watch.
 
(40:51) What are the things that you look at? (40:53) Who are the people that you follow? (40:55) It might be someone, you follow someone who talks about their gardening and you're intrigued with how they grow things.
 
(41:04) They're offering you something of value, something of interest to you. (41:07) Now, as a real estate professional or a mortgage professional, what can you offer of value? (41:13) Well, as a consumer, I can get a lot of information by just going to Google or asking at ChatGPT.
 
(41:22) But I'm probably not going to be able to get specific information on a specific neighborhood or street or part of town or what's going on in that area. (41:34) Which direction are things going? (41:37) Are they on the upswing or on a downward trend?
 
(41:41) That's information that consumers will find and do find very, very interesting because they can't ask and get a... (41:50) I can't go to Google and say, hey, I'm looking at these two areas of this town. (41:56) Which one's better?
Mike Mills
(41:59) Well, that's the value of niche marketing, (42:01) which I think, (42:02) especially it's like these days (42:04) with the glut of information (42:06) that's available to consumers, (42:07) the amount of information (42:08) that people can find, (42:10) the more specific that you can get (42:12) on what it is, (42:13) the message that you're trying to convey (42:15) about this neighborhood, (42:16) this street, this city, (42:17) or this small business (42:19) or whatever the case may be, (42:21) you can actually get a pretty good audience (42:23) from that because there is... (42:25) We have 300 some odd people, 300 some odd million people in the United States. (42:30) There's 100,000 people out there and they're looking for that specific thing that you're putting out there.
 
(42:35) And when you try to be all things to everyone, you're usually nothing to anyone. (42:40) And so if you can get specific and you can find something that you're passionate about, that you understand, that you have knowledge base that's above maybe your competition that you understand a little bit better and really drive in and focus on that, you can always grow your audience from there. (42:55) But I'm a big proponent of starting somewhere very specific and getting an audience built for that.
 
(43:01) And then you can grow beyond that. (43:02) And so, especially when it comes to social media because there is so much out there. (43:06) If you're just filming house walkthroughs and neighborhoods and giving price, I mean, those are a dime a dozen out there.
 
(43:12) But if you're talking about, you know how bathrooms look and the design aspect of a bathroom and where you should put the toilet, the mirror and the countertop and the shower and how it functions and all that can be a very specific thing that people will look for when they're designing homes. (43:29) They find you and then they can follow you from there. (43:31) So I think being as specific as possible in your marketing is a big benefit, especially if you're looking to gain eyeballs.
 
(43:37) Yeah, totally agree. (43:39) How do you feel like, you know, with all this technology that's available, what's your advice to agents that are like, okay, I want to use the tech, but I got to keep my personal touch there because that's what's built my business. (43:49) So how does someone balance those two things?
Chris Heller
(43:53) I think if you're, unless you're completely just plagiarizing things or leveraging AI 100%, it's not easy. (44:07) It's not hard to keep your personal touch, right? (44:10) You have to insert yourself into everything you're doing.
 
(44:13) You need to put it into your words. (44:16) You need to talk the way you talk. (44:17) You need to act the way you act.
 
(44:20) And so I think that's just, you know, if you're not taking a shortcut and just doing things the right way, I don't think you need to be worried about that because it'll naturally happen if you're the one that's doing that. (44:35) But I use AI all the time. (44:37) I use it for helping me with certain responses to emails or certain things I need to craft.
 
(44:44) But I always then put it into my words. (44:47) Like if it says something that I would never say, I'm not going to use that.
Mike Mills
(44:53) You're looking for a way to put it. (44:55) It's like gives you a couple ideas.
Chris Heller
(44:57) Yeah, it gives me 80% of it. (44:59) And then I put the finishing touch.
Mike Mills
(45:03) Well, I would be remiss if I didn't talk to you a little bit about all this NAR stuff that's going on. (45:09) Obviously, it's been all the news, raging the news in the real estate world over the last 12 months, essentially. (45:17) So, you know, everything is starting to settle in, which is a good thing.
 
(45:21) I think for a period of time, we were living in a world where nobody knew exactly what was going to happen. (45:26) And there was a lot of confusion and doubt as to how it's all going to turn out. (45:29) I think we're kind of starting to see a clearer picture of what it's going to look like going forward in our new reality here.
 
(45:37) I want to kind of get your take on how all this shook out, what you feel like, where you feel like this is headed ultimately, how you feel like it impacts the individual agent. (45:46) And if you were with your team, where are you telling them to focus their efforts on going forward, adapting to the new market?
Chris Heller
(45:57) It's going to change things, hands down, right? (46:02) There are changes starting August 17th. (46:05) How we do things will be different.
 
(46:11) Boy, you asked a bunch of questions in one day. (46:19) And I think from my perspective, I think it's all good. (46:25) I don't look at this as, oh, this is bad.
 
(46:27) This is all good for the consumer. (46:30) That's debatable. (46:31) I think the plaintiff's attorneys and the arguments they made on behalf of the consumers and what they really wanted were two different things.
 
(46:42) Did I see right?
Mike Mills
(46:43) I thought I saw somewhere that all the jurors, that there wasn't one person that actually owned a home on the jury. (46:50) Is that true?
Chris Heller
(46:52) I don't know that to be a fact, so I can't tell you it's true or not true, but it wouldn't surprise me. (47:01) There's a whole bunch of stuff about that trial that is like, really? (47:07) In any case, what's done is done.
 
(47:09) The settlements are on their way to being approved and things will go into play. (47:16) A lot of the stuff we've talked about in this conversation are just going to matter that much more. (47:25) Being able to deliver value, be able to communicate value, be able to be confident in your ability to deliver value are going to be key to getting someone to say, yes, I want you to be my agent.
 
(47:37) Yes, I'm willing to pay for your services because I see that I want those services. (47:45) It's no different than every year, my accountant sends me an engagement letter that I have to sign every year. (47:54) Year after year, here's our rates.
 
(47:57) Sometimes those rates go up. (47:59) Here's what we do. (47:59) Here's what we don't do.
 
(48:01) I sign it because I get value from the relationship. (48:05) The minute I stop getting value, I'm going to go find someone else or go do it a different way. (48:12) I've never hired an attorney without a retainer and a retaining agreement.
 
(48:18) That's how the world operates. (48:21) We would never think to list someone's home as agents without a contract, without listing agreement. (48:29) We should have been doing that all along on the buy side.
 
(48:32) In some states, they have been doing that all along. (48:36) For the rest of the states and the rest of the agents, now you have to do that, which then means it's not just getting someone to sign an agreement, but why should they? (48:44) What are you going to offer that's unique or different or valuable to them?
 
(48:51) Can you communicate that in an effective way? (48:57) I mentioned I said this yesterday. (48:59) The gap between the haves and the have-nots will get wider than they've ever been.
 
(49:03) In real estate, the haves are the agents that are skilled, that are experienced, that are doing lots of business. (49:10) The have-nots are the ones that aren't. (49:13) The ones that aren't are going to struggle.
 
(49:15) They're going to struggle having those conversations. (49:18) As a buyer, when I say, why should I sign with you instead of someone else? (49:24) If you can't give me a good answer with conviction and confidence that makes sense and goes, yeah, I want that, then I'm going to say, thanks, I'll let you know what I decide.
 
(49:38) I'm going to talk to someone else until I find the one that says, yes, this is the one I want.
Mike Mills
(49:43) You're not walking away from that conversation feeling great about that if that person can't relay exactly what they're doing for you. (49:50) I think the market is ultimately going to determine this to some extent. (49:54) Zillow has taken a shot at it recently with their buyer rep agreement that they put out there, which is the short-term thing.
 
(50:00) But what do you see the evolution of the buyer's rep agreement becoming with these new changes? (50:05) Being that if anybody doesn't know, if you put on your buyer's rep agreement that your commission or your pay is, say, 1% because you're trying to not scare somebody away with the cost and then you go to a seller and you put a contract in and they're offering 3%, well, sorry, you don't get it. (50:22) You get 1% because that's what's on your agreement.
 
(50:25) What do you think the evolution of that looks like?
Chris Heller
(50:28) For a while, it's just going to be chaotic because everyone's going to be trying different things. (50:36) In an industry that is made up of a bunch of independent contractors, every conceivable thing that could be offered or done will be offered or done. (50:48) We'll see all sorts of things.
 
(50:50) Then over time, we'll see what actually is working and what's sustainable and what makes sense. (50:55) Then things will calm down and there'll be more of a normalization of what's being done. (51:00) I think at first, it'll just be very chaotic.
 
(51:05) As far as the agreements themselves go, again, a lot of different things tried. (51:18) You're going to have short-term agreements. (51:19) You're going to have medium-term agreements.
 
(51:20) You're going to have long-term agreements. (51:21) You're going to have agreements for a very, very finite amount of time or a finite amount of properties because people are going to want to date before they get married or depending on who it is you're meeting with. (51:34) If you're meeting with someone for the first time or it's a blind date, at Movoto, if we're introducing a buyer or a seller to an agent and they don't know each other, and yes, we tell the seller that all of our agents are vetted.
 
(51:48) They're the most experienced, the most professional. (51:50) They get the best results. (51:52) That gives the seller or the buyer some confidence in who they're going to be introduced to, but it doesn't mean they're going to like them or want to do business with them.
 
(52:01) That may mean an agreement that allows them at least to meet or to be able to date for a while before they decide to get into a relationship and then to get married. (52:12) I think the agreements will reflect that type of process.
Mike Mills
(52:17) They're going to have to have some sort of a dating your realtor app where you swipe right or whatever that's going to be necessary for this going forward. (52:26) The good news is that most real estate relationships are established with someone that you generally already know to some extent or a warm referral. (52:33) There's a relationship there to begin with and then it's just a matter of setting the parameters of that relationship going into transaction and seeing where that ultimately takes you.
 
(52:44) That's good. (52:44) I think that's good for the industry. (52:46) It's transparency.
 
(52:47) It's communication. (52:47) I don't think any of that is bad. (52:49) I think that's a positive thing.
Chris Heller
(52:51) Raises the bar of professionalism. (52:54) That's what good agents and brokers and teams have been wanting that for years. (52:59) They've been saying, there's too many agents.
 
(53:02) The bad agents make it hard for the good agents. (53:05) There's no barriers to entry. (53:08) All those things.
 
(53:09) I think these changes will actually for the first time address some of those things that people have been asking for.
Mike Mills
(53:17) Last thing I want to get from you before you go is I want to get your opinion on the state of the housing market as a whole. (53:25) I read a statistic the other day talking about different generations, boomers, Gen X, which I'm a part of, millennials. (53:34) Millennials, by the time they got to 30, only 41% of them were homeowners, whereas boomers, by the time they got to 30, 52% were homeowners and 48 of Gen X.
 
(53:46) There was a fall off, but it wasn't dramatic. (53:48) Then we see this massive fall off down to millennials. (53:52) I anticipate even a bigger one as we get into Gen Z.
 
(53:57) With home prices becoming so incredibly unaffordable, with the market being in the free money that was just given out for the last five years and interest rates being so low and causing all these asset prices to go through the roof, what do you think or how do we get our way out of this? (54:13) Is there a solution? (54:15) What is our market going to look like in 15 or 20 years?
 
(54:18) Are we getting to a place where homeownership is only going to be something for the uber wealthy or where are we headed?
Chris Heller
(54:28) If I knew the answer to these questions with certainty, I'd quit my day job and place all the bets that I needed to bet. (54:40) That's my disclaimer. (54:43) I don't think there's any going back.
 
(54:46) How are they going to get things back to this way or back to that way? (54:50) There's no going back. (54:51) Things are moving forward.
 
(54:53) They're evolving. (54:54) They're changing. (54:55) How people work.
 
(54:56) The younger generations aren't looking at homes the same way that I looked at homes when I was their age or that you did when you were their age. (55:08) When I looked at it, this is where I'm going to live. (55:11) This is where my job is.
 
(55:12) How people are like, I could work from here or I could work from there or I could work from anywhere. (55:19) Because of that, do I want to be nailed down? (55:24) There's a combination of human behavior and how behavior is changing.
 
(55:32) Then there's the real issue of affordability, which is the other big challenge. (55:37) Your question was kind of a leading question. (55:39) Yes, I do believe in the future there is going to be just like in the number of transactions that agents do, the haves and the have-nots, I unfortunately believe the same thing will happen for the people in this country that the gap between the haves and the have-nots will continue to widen.
 
(56:02) Home ownership and owning real estate is the biggest investment people make. (56:09) If they don't have the ability to do that, they don't do that. (56:15) Will there be things to address it?
 
(56:17) Yes. (56:17) Will they help? (56:18) Yes.
 
(56:21) Unless there's some big resets, which would be really painful. (56:25) When I talk about a big reset, I mean values coming down 20%. (56:30) We've had that happen before and it is very painful.
 
(56:33) There are a lot of casualties when that happens. (56:37) I'm not saying that needs to happen or should happen or I want that to happen, but without that happening, affordability and the affordability challenges aren't going to go away. (56:49) The wages just aren't going to keep up with that.
 
(56:52) If they did, I would shudder to think what our inflation would look like. (56:58) I think as time goes on, it's going to be more and more challenging for people to own things. (57:08) I've always had this conversation with people, if you're going to buy, there's never a better time than right now because no one knows what the future is going to look like.
 
(57:18) Good chance it's going to be more expensive or more challenging than it is now.
Mike Mills
(57:24) The statement when people say, when's the best time to buy real estate? (57:28) I always say yesterday because that's just what it is. (57:33) It's not a doom and gloom thing.
 
(57:37) You don't try to be that way with it, but it is just the reality of the situation. (57:42) When you're running a business like you have multiple times over, you have to look at the realities. (57:48) We hope this and we really want that because that doesn't get you to your end goal.
 
(57:53) You have to know what's happening, what's coming your way, and plan accordingly. (57:58) That's just a message that you have to give to your clients if you're a real estate professional. (58:03) Real estate is becoming something that is getting more and more unaffordable.
 
(58:07) If you have the means and not everybody does. (58:09) It's easy to say, but if you have the means, the ability, you need to buy regardless of where interest rates are because rates change. (58:16) They change all the time.
 
(58:18) I don't think we'll ever get back to the 2% to 3% because it was so artificial. (58:24) I don't see that, but getting back to fours and fives I don't think is unreasonable. (58:29) That's a very affordable rate to own a home.
Chris Heller
(58:32) Absolutely. (58:33) It's a rate at which it makes sense.
Mike Mills
(58:38) The costs are coming down. (58:39) The prices are going to continue to go up. (58:41) We've had the slowest real estate market that we've seen in 40 years over the last 12 months.
 
(58:45) Home prices across the United States still went up 5%. (58:50) It doesn't change it. (58:52) All right, Chris.
 
(58:52) I really appreciate your time. (58:54) It was a great conversation. (58:58) There's a lot of big tools out there that agents can use these days to streamline.
 
(59:03) With fewer transactions happening, having the ability to make your business more cost-effective and more process- and system-oriented so that way you can serve the most amount of clients and maximize your income with the tools you have available I think is invaluable. (59:20) You guys have created a great product. (59:23) I hope the guy in fifth place comes up and beats the homes.com and the Zillows of the world. (59:30) I'm rooting for you guys. (59:32) I hope you all can keep climbing that ladder because having good people that have been in the business and are real estate professionals and not the tech guys and the hedge funds, those are the ones that we want leading the industry and you guys are doing a great job with that.
Chris Heller
(59:44) I really appreciate it. (59:45) That's how we feel too. (59:47) It's unanimous.
Mike Mills
(59:48) Let everybody know how to find you guys. (59:51) I'll also include a lot of that in the show notes if they want to go check out your site and see where you're at.
Chris Heller
(59:57) If you're a solo agent, you can go to leverbymovoto.com for teams. (1:00:08) You can go to movoto.com or ojo.com. (1:00:11) ojo.com is probably the easiest. (1:00:13) Or you can just message me. (1:00:15) Invite me on any social media platform. (1:00:17) DM me.
 
(1:00:18) Message me. (1:00:19) He's out there.
Mike Mills
(1:00:20) Incredibly accessible. (1:00:21) That's how we got him on here. (1:00:23) Thank you, Chris.
 
(1:00:24) I appreciate your time, man. (1:00:25) Everybody have a great weekend. (1:00:27) Enjoy the playoff runs.
 
(1:00:28) Watch a little baseball. (1:00:29) Have some good times and we'll see you guys back here on our market update on Tuesday. (1:00:33) Y'all have a great weekend.
 
(1:00:34) We'll see you then.
Chris Heller Profile Photo

Chris Heller

President

As President at OJO, Chris brings deep expertise having held influential industry positions, including CEO at mellohome and CEO at Keller Williams Realty International (KWRI). Chris earned his real estate license when he was 20 years old and built one of the most successful real estate teams in the U.S. From Rookie of the Year in 1989 to becoming the top-producing agent in San Diego County and the No. 1 Keller Williams associate in all of North America, Chris is one of the industry’s top thought leaders.