Understanding Fed Rate Cuts and Their Effect on Mortgage Rates

(0:00) There's a common misconception out there about how the Fed and mortgage rates are connected. (0:05) See, almost every day when I'm speaking to realtors or potential buyers, I get the same (0:09) question. When the Fed cuts rates in September, mortgage rates will go down too, right? Well, (0:15) yes and no, but let me explain.

Well, howdy howdy all you Texas property pros out there. (0:28) So, the bust in the real estate world right now is all about mortgage rates. (0:32) They're starting to head south.

And right now, everyone's asking how low they're going to go. (0:36) And when should they consider buying or refinancing based on where these rates are headed? (0:40) Now, as a real estate professional, it's your job to stay informed so you can guide your clients (0:44) through all this market chaos. Heck, just in the last 10 days, rates have dropped, (0:49) risen, and dropped again.

But where's all this leading? And when will the Fed make its next move? (0:54) Well, that's what I'm here to help you figure out. Welcome to the Texas Real Estate and Finance (0:57) Podcast Market Update for the week of August the 14th. I'm your real estate cruise director, (1:01) Mike Mills, here to ramble into your headphones about mortgage rates, housing trends, (1:06) and those important, sometimes fun stories that might not be on your radar, but can definitely (1:10) impact your business.

Think of the show as the map with all the shortcuts to your real estate (1:14) success. And today's episode is just the next page in your atlas to real estate prosperity. (1:20) So, where's the compass pointing at today? Well, it's been a bit of a rollercoaster ride for (1:23) interest rates lately.

They've gone down, then up, and now they're back down again. Confused yet? (1:28) Don't worry, I got you covered. We'll kick off the show by diving into where rates stand right now (1:32) and unpacking the reasons behind all this volatility.

It's like a stock market thriller (1:36) lately, but with a mortgage rate subplot. Next up, we'll take a close look at the national (1:41) housing numbers and zoom in on what's happening right here in Texas. Have these lower rates sparked (1:45) a surge in demand, or are the buyers still sitting on the fence? I'll break it all down for you.

(1:49) Then I've got some not-so-great news that's casting a shadow on our economic outlook. (1:53) A trend that could potentially cool demand even further despite the dip in rates. Spoiler alert, (1:58) it's something that we should all be keeping an eye on.

After that, I'll be calling out a (2:03) recent article that had the audacity to rank Texas as the third worst state to move to. Seriously? (2:08) As the host of the Texas Real Estate and Finance podcast, you can bet I've got some thoughts on (2:13) this one and I'm ready to set the record straight. And if you're a fan of tech and real estate, (2:17) you're going to love the next segment.

There's one neighborhood in Texas pioneering a new technology (2:21) that could be the key to more affordable housing. It's like something straight out of a sci-fi movie, (2:26) but this could actually solve some real-world problems. And finally, (2:29) with the Fed likely to cut interest rates in September for the first time since August of (2:33) 2019, we're going to take a deep dive into the relationship between the Fed funds rate (2:37) and mortgage rates.

How is this cut going to affect your mortgage now? And more importantly, (2:43) how much power does the Fed really have over mortgage rates? We're going to unpack this often (2:48) relationship together. But before we dive in, if today's episode gives you even a nugget of wisdom, (2:53) a spark of insight, or even just a good laugh, do me a solid and pass it along. (2:58) You don't need to broadcast it to the whole world, although I wouldn't complain if you did, (3:02) but maybe share it with that one friend or colleague who could use a little more real (3:05) estate or mortgage know-how in their life.

And if you're feeling extra generous and have a client (3:10) in need of mortgage advice, I'm your guy. Remember, this podcast might be my passion project, (3:15) but helping people secure the right home loan, well, that's my bread and butter. (3:19) So help a fellow Texan out and share the love.

I'd greatly appreciate it. (3:22) All right, let's kick things off with the question that every realtor and homebuyer loves to ask. (3:27) Hey Mike, what are the rates? Well, according to Mortgage News Daily, as of August 14th, (3:31) 2024, the average 30-year fixed conventional mortgage rate is 6.49%. The average 30-year (3:36) FHA rate is 6.05%. The average 30-year VA rate is 6.07%. The average 15-year conventional (3:44) rate is 5.95%. And the average jumbo rate right now is around 6.68%. Now last week, (3:51) we had way more rates starting with a five than we do this week.

But today, (3:54) only that 15-year remains under that threshold. So what's going on? Well, the good news is in (3:59) many places, FHA and VA rates are still coming in below 6%. And the mortgage bond market had a big (4:05) rebound yesterday after five days of rough performances.

And this is all thanks to (4:09) yesterday's release of the Fed's favorite measure of inflation, the Producer Price Index, or PPI, (4:13) which tracks wholesale or producer inflation, essentially what companies pay to produce goods. (4:19) Year over year, it dropped from 2.7% to 2.2%, beating the expected 2.3%. And the trend carried (4:26) over to today when the market's favorite measure of inflation, the Consumer Price Index, or CPI, (4:31) showed the inflation rate dropping to 2.9%, below expectations of 3%. Good news is rates (4:38) are coming down.

Bad news is the economy might be too. So what is the deal with all the volatility? (4:42) Well, in short, the economy isn't as strong as some headlines would lead you to believe. (4:46) And the market is finally starting to reflect this reality.

But remember, (4:50) stock and bond markets don't move in straight lines. They have their ups and they have their (4:54) downs, even as they trend in a bearish or bullish direction. And after last Monday's big sell-off (4:59) where the Dow dropped nearly 1,000 points in a single day, a rebound was almost inevitable.

(5:04) And sure enough, we saw one. And because mortgage rates, the stock market, global markets, (5:08) and foreign currencies are so interconnected these days, big events trigger swift market reactions, (5:13) often followed by a quick bounce back. So, buckle up.

Volatility will be par for the course over (5:18) the next several months, especially as we approach the election and deal with rising global tensions (5:22) in Ukraine and the Middle East. All that said, though, I'm feeling confident that by the spring (5:26) of 2025, we'll see most mortgage rates with a 5 in front of them. The only thing right now that (5:31) I could see that would throw a wrench in that prediction is if the U.S. government continues (5:34) to pile on to the national debt, which may very well be the case.

But beyond that, with inflation (5:39) cooling, unemployment rising, and consumer spending slowing down, the Fed seems poised to (5:44) make some big moves through the rest of 2024. And by early next year, these moves should drive (5:49) mortgage rates down to levels that we haven't seen since the summer of 2022. So, yeehaw, my friends! (5:54) We might finally be crawling out of this real estate market hole that we've been sitting in (5:58) for the last two years.

I, for one, can't wait. Now, with rates starting to dip, the big question is, (6:03) has this sparked more demand? Or are buyers still sitting on the sidelines? And what do you say to (6:09) someone who's holding off on buying, waiting to see where rates go? Let's dig into the numbers a (6:12) little bit. Over the past nine weeks, we've seen five positive weeks for purchase applications (6:16) compared to four negative ones.

In percentage terms, that's a cumulative gain of 14% versus (6:22) a 12% drop in the negative weeks. So, while lower rates have had some impact, it's been pretty (6:28) marginal. Now, the recent pending home sales data did come in strong thanks to some positive momentum (6:33) in the first weeks of June.

But in reality, nothing earth-shattering is happening right now. (6:37) Although, it is still a step up from earlier this year when mortgage rates were creeping (6:40) into the 7.5% range. So, with lower rates, why isn't demand booming? Well, first, remember that (6:45) real estate is a seasonal business.

To see more buyers, you often need to see more sellers because (6:50) those who move usually need to sell their current homes first, which creates more inventory and (6:55) opportunities. But as we head into August and September and the final quarter of 2024, (6:59) it's typical for listings and purchase volumes to decline because schools started. And this happens (7:05) almost every year.

Plus, 2024 has already been one of the slowest years for transactions that (7:09) we've seen in quite a while. So, if you hear people online shouting about a housing market crash, (7:13) take it with a grain of salt. A seasonal dip is very normal.

But remember, falling 10% down (7:18) Mount Everest is quite a bit different than slipping 10% down from the hill in your grand (7:22) papi's backyard. As Einstein would say, it's all relative. Okay, so purchase volume is pretty flat (7:27) right now.

But what about inventory? Are we finally emerging from the perpetual seller's (7:31) market that's dominated the last decade? Well, think back to March of 2022 when every single (7:36) family home seemed to sell above asking price and buyers were guaranteeing overappraised value. (7:41) Back then, according to Altos Research, we had just 240,000 single family homes for sale across (7:47) the entire country. Now, fast forward to August of 2024 and we've got 692,000 single family homes on (7:54) But, it is worth noting that just before COVID hit in August of 2019, there were over 972,000 (8:01) homes for sale.

So, we are just now climbing back towards a balanced housing market, but we aren't (8:06) quite there yet. Now, over the past few weeks, we've added about 8,000 new homes per week to (8:10) the market. But to truly shift the balance in favor of buyers and potentially drive down prices, (8:15) we need to keep up that pace.

However, with the year winding down, we'll likely see those numbers (8:20) start to decline, though it hasn't happened yet. But if we can keep adding to those listings, (8:25) we might just have more reasonable prices to greet buyers when rates become more attractive. (8:29) And that could set the stage for a big spring in 2025.

(8:32) Alright, that's the national data. But, since we're here in the Lone Star State, (8:36) how is Texas faring in the housing market? Well, according to a recent article from Newsweek, (8:40) housing inventory levels across Texas have reached their highest point since at least (8:43) 2017, based on data from ReVenture. The surge in inventory is expected to lead to cooling prices (8:49) in the coming months.

The article states that there are now over 113,000 listings on the market (8:54) in Texas, and that's nearly tripled the number from three years ago and comfortably higher than (8:59) pre-pandemic levels. ReVenture's data also showed that in 2017, Texas had just about 104,000 (9:05) active listings, which slightly dipped to 103,000 the following year. And by 2019, (9:10) listings had grown to almost 107,000, but then plummeted back to 74,000 in 2020.

(9:16) And during the height of the pandemic in 2021, inventory hit a five-year low of 45,000 (9:22) homes. Now, since then, inventory has steadily increased in Texas from 68,000 listings in 2022, (9:29) 81,000 in 2023, and 113,000 this year. All this according to ReVenture.

Now, (9:35) Redfin reported an even higher number of active listings in June, totaling 157,000. That's a (9:40) 23.3% increase compared to the previous year. And of those, 43,000 were newly listed homes.

(9:46) Now, just a side note on this, researching statewide active listings in real time can (9:51) be a little tricky. The data varies depending on where you get it and whether it includes (9:54) new builds versus existing homes, condos, multifamily units, off-market properties, (9:59) cash buyers, and so on and so on. Different platforms pull data from different places.

(10:03) Personally, I prefer Altos research because they do tend to parse the data out a little bit better, (10:07) but that's just my opinion. Anyway, Texas is seeing a huge surge in housing inventory across (10:11) the state. This is especially true in Austin, Dallas, and San Antonio, where inventory levels (10:16) are now well above long-term norms.

According to ReVenture, San Antonio had a 52% inventory (10:22) surplus. Austin had a 51% inventory surplus, Dallas 38%, and Houston only 14%. And as a result, (10:29) list prices across Texas are dropping.

In Austin, for example, prices are down 6% year over year, (10:35) while in Dallas and San Antonio, they've decreased by 4%. But despite these price drops, (10:39) home values are still too high for many buyers, which is keeping demand very soft. (10:44) ReVenture also pointed out that Texas is facing challenges similar to Florida's.

Homebuilders are (10:49) continuing to deliver a large supply of homes, even in an environment of reduced demand. At the (10:54) same time, many investors in Texas are offloading properties purchased near the peak of the market. (10:59) And this combination is leading to a significant increase in inventory and subsequent price cuts.

(11:04) By the way, this glut of inventory does have a little bit to do with a lot of new builds that (11:08) are now coming online after they've been planned out for the last two years, and they're just now (11:12) getting completed and being offered up for sale. However, many of the starts and permits that are (11:16) applied to start these new builds have declined pretty significantly since demand has softened. (11:21) Now, the persistent of high prices despite the surge in inventory is a concern for ReVenture.

(11:25) They highlighted in the article that Texas was once a truly affordable market. From 2005 to 2019, (11:31) home values in the state were either undervalued or fairly valued. That is, (11:34) until everybody and their dogs started moving here during the pandemic.

Because I guess, (11:38) in Texas, we lack our freedom. But I digress. Alright, so while the article does correctly (11:42) note the growth in Texas inventory, it's important to remember that we've been in a seller's market (11:46) for over a decade.

So, as I've said before, this is all relative. Even with the current (11:52) inventory growth, we're still not even at five months of supply. And a balanced real estate (11:56) requires anywhere between five to six months of supply to put equal power between the buyer (12:01) or the seller.

So, for the first time in over a decade, we're actually moving towards a more (12:06) balanced housing market in Texas. And this is good for everyone. But prices do remain elevated (12:10) and are likely just to plateau rather than decline significantly, even if we reach that (12:16) six month of supply.

And oh, by the way, I am all for more affordable housing in the state. (12:20) And I appreciate the improvements that we're seeing right now. But we got to look at all (12:24) this data in context.

Comparing today's market to the wild housing market of 2020 to 2022 (12:29) is not a fair comparison. I hope this trend continues and prices do come down. But realistically, (12:35) they won't drop that much.

And when rates fall further, demand is going to increase and prices (12:39) are likely to start rising again. It's just a matter of time. So, what do you tell people (12:43) that say that they want to wait until rates come down and inventory builds up before they want to (12:47) buy? Well, honestly, first off, I would say that that's not necessarily a bad strategy right now, (12:50) especially knowing what we know.

Rates are likely to continue falling and prices will level off and (12:55) maybe even decline some if inventory continues to build. But by the way, that is a big if the (13:00) inventory is the key here. Rates are going to change up and down, but these prices will be (13:04) dictated by the number of homes available for sale.

And in more desirable parts of town, (13:08) I don't expect inventory to spike much more, especially as rates come down. Remember, (13:12) we're all creatures of the same nature. If you're waiting for rates to decline and prices to come (13:16) down, so are millions of other people.

And when that does finally happen, home values are likely (13:21) to go up. And if you don't believe me, look at any real estate chart over the last 20 to 30 years. (13:25) Prices always go up.

So if you feel like your client or you can time the market perfectly, (13:30) wait it out. But the better answer is it depends on your situation. Do you have to move? Did you (13:35) already find that perfect house that fits all your needs? Because if you need the house, (13:39) just get the house.

You're going to reap the benefits eventually. Maybe not in the first (13:42) year or so right now, but ultimately you will. I bought my first house in 2004 and I paid $130,000 (13:47) for it and I sold it in 2009.

Great timing, by the way, for 135,000. So even in the worst real (13:54) estate crisis in the history of our country during the great financial crisis, I sold my house for (13:59) 5,000 more than I paid for it. And I had built up equity over that time, paying down my loan, (14:03) which allowed me to buy my second home, which I paid 195,000 for and sold it for 300,000 just six (14:10) years later.

And we've been scaling up ever since. That's just how this stuff works. But everyone's (14:15) circumstance is different.

I just know the best path to wealth in this country has always gone (14:19) through real estate. And I don't know how that's changed. It's just gotten a little hard.

All right, (14:23) next up, let's talk about another sign that the economy is shakier than people might realize and (14:28) how it could impact home buying in the coming years. So the number of us bankruptcies under (14:32) chapter 11 has surged to 2,500, the highest in 13 years. Now chapter 11 allows companies to (14:39) reorganize under court supervision while still staying in business.

But these filings have more (14:44) than doubled in just two years. Now this spike follows the Fed's aggressive rate hikes, which (14:49) have pushed interest rates to 23-year highs, making it really tough for many companies to (14:53) manage their debt. Small cap companies and small businesses in particular are desperate for lower (14:58) rates, but relief is slow and consumer spending has started to pull back.

And as a result of all (15:03) this, unemployment is rising and small businesses are filing for bankruptcy at rates we have not (15:08) seen since COVID. And while the inflation rate is slowing, the cost of living remains higher than (15:13) ever, forcing consumers to cut back and stretch their budgets. Insurance costs for cars and homes (15:19) are crushing people and some are even going uninsured because they simply can't afford it.

(15:24) Food prices are up and many Americans are juggling side gigs or multiple jobs just to get by. And all (15:30) of this affects the average American's ability and willingness to buy a home. And I've said it (15:35) before and I'll say it again.

People are struggling no matter what the corporate media is telling you (15:40) right now. Rates are coming down, so is the economy. And that's not good news for anybody.

(15:45) All right, next up, the Dallas Morning News recently reported on a study by Consumer Affairs (15:49) that ranked Texas as the third worst state to move to in 2024. First off, I'm calling bullshit on (15:55) that, but let's hear out their argument. So the study assessed states based on affordability, (16:00) economy, education, and health, quality of life, and safety.

And Texas ranked pretty poorly just (16:05) ahead Louisiana and Alaska with low scores in health, education, affordability, and safety. (16:10) Meanwhile, Utah, New Hampshire, and Idaho topped the list. In fact, no southern states cracked the (16:16) top 10.

Sounds like a bunch of Yankees running the Consumer Affairs to me. Now, Texas also ranked (16:21) dead last in health and education based on insurance coverage, high school graduation rates, (16:26) and the quality of care. In affordability, Texas placed 41st, dragged down by regional price parity, (16:32) median household income, and property taxes.

And safety apparently wasn't much better with a 38th (16:38) place rank based on crime rates and law enforcement coverage. And the economy apparently wasn't much (16:42) to write home about either with Texas coming in 37. Good news though, Texas did score well in (16:47) quality of life, placing 16th thanks to our road quality, weather, and low reliance on public (16:53) transportation.

Nobody's taking a bus in Texas. Now this ranking flies in the face of migration (16:57) trends, which consistently placed Texas among the top destination in the country for its job (17:02) opportunities, warm weather, and low taxes. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, more than (17:07) 9 million people moved to Texas between 2000 and 2022, over 3 million more than Florida, (17:12) the second place state.

In fact, Texas added an average of 400,000 new residents per year during (17:18) that period, more than any other state by a long shot. So what gives with all this? Are we the (17:22) Pete Davidson of states? Supposedly dumb and unattractive, but everyone still wants a piece? (17:27) Sure, we have our issues like disparities in school quality and the impact of illegal (17:31) immigration on insurance and services. But even with these challenges, people are flocking to (17:36) Texas more than anywhere else.

So I say let the haters hate consumer affairs, ask most Texans if (17:41) they'd want to live anywhere else, and they'll probably just laugh at you. Turn back up that (17:45) George Strait song and go right back to eating their beanless chili on their way to one of the (17:49) 7,000 lakes that we spend nine months out of the year on. So have fun in New Hampshire, I guess.

(17:54) Now for my final quick hit, housing affordability might have just found its way back. Maybe, (17:58) because Texas has done it again. So this summer, a robotic printer from Icon is finishing the last (18:03) few of 100 3D printed houses in Wolf Ranch, a community in Georgetown, Texas, about 30 miles (18:10) from Austin.

Icon began printing the walls of what it says is the largest 3D printed community (18:14) in November of 2022. Now compared to traditional instruction, the company says that 3D printing (18:19) is faster, less expensive, requires fewer workers, and minimizes construction material waste. After (18:25) concrete powder, water, and sand and other additives are mixed together and pumped into the printer, (18:30) a nozzle squeezes out the concrete mixture like toothpaste onto a brush, building up layer by (18:35) layer a pre-programmed path that creates corduroy effect type walls.

So a single story three to four (18:41) bedroom home takes about three weeks to finish print with the foundation and metal roofs installed (18:45) as they traditionally would be. It's said that the concrete walls are designed to resist water, (18:49) mold, termites, and extreme weather. The walls also provide strong insulation from the Texas heat, (18:55) keeping the interior temperature cool even when the air conditioner isn't on full blast.

The 3D (19:00) printed homes at Wolf Ranch called the Genesis Collection by developers range in price from (19:05) $450,000 to close to $600,000. And developers said that a little more than one quarter of the (19:10) hundred homes have already been sold. Now, these price points are a little bit more expensive, (19:14) but this is kind of how tech works.

It costs quite a bit to start, but once you scale, (19:18) costs do come down just like how much it costs to buy a TV now compared to 10 years ago. Now, (19:22) it does remain to be seen if this is going to solve any problems, but I love that someone's (19:27) trying. We need a lot more innovation just like this in home building.

And this project at least (19:31) gets that going. Now, if they could just 3D print my Costco order, we'd be really cooking. (19:35) All right, we're going to wrap things up now by diving into a topic that's on every real (19:38) estate professionals mind these days, interest rates.

Now, earlier I mentioned how rates had (19:43) been moving and where they might be headed, but there's a common misconception out there about (19:47) how the Fed and mortgage rates are connected. You see, almost every day when I'm speaking to (19:52) realtors or potential buyers, I get the same question. When the Fed cuts rates in September, (19:57) mortgage rates will go down too, right? Well, yes and no, but let me explain.

First, (20:02) let's define what rate the Fed is actually cutting. The federal funds rate often simply (20:07) called the Fed funds rate is the interest rate at which banks and credit unions lend reserve (20:12) balances to each other overnight. Essentially it's the rate that banks charge each other for short (20:18) term loans.

Now this rate change does impact other rates because just like car manufacturers pass on (20:25) the increased cost to consumers. Banks do the same thing with interest rates, variable rate loans, (20:30) not fixed deposit rates like money market accounts and CDs and credit card rates are all (20:36) influenced by changes in the Fed funds rate. You can see those effects directly.

But what about (20:41) mortgage rates? Well, mortgage rates, except for the adjustable rate mortgages, aren't directly (20:46) tied to the Fed funds rate. Instead they move based on how mortgage backed securities perform. (20:51) MBSs as they're called are financial instruments representing ownership in a pool of residential (20:56) or commercial mortgage loans.

These securities are created when lenders bundle mortgages together (21:00) and sell them to investors as a single security. And the demand for these securities drives mortgage (21:05) rates up or down because if demand for mortgage backed securities is high, mortgage rates drop. (21:11) If demand is low, mortgage rates rise.

And this demand is closely tied to the yield of the 10 (21:16) year treasury bond because investors in mortgage backed securities expect a certain yield. And if (21:20) overall yields rise, like when interest rates on US treasury bonds go up, then investors are going (21:25) to demand higher yields on mortgage backed securities as well. So in order to meet those (21:29) yield expectations, mortgage rates have to go up.

So if the 10 year treasury yield is high, (21:33) currently just under 4% right now, mortgage rates have to be high as well to remain competitive. (21:38) For example, if the 10 year treasury yield is at 4% and a mortgage rate is at six and a half percent, (21:44) that two and a half percent difference is what we call a risk premium for the bank and is involved (21:49) in the cost to originate the loan or the profit. So when the Fed raises rates, it impacts short (21:54) term borrowing costs and high short term costs signal that overall rates are rising.

And this (21:59) affects investors' expectations of future economic conditions, which means that investors will (22:04) demand higher yields on longer term investments like the 10 year treasury to compensate for (22:09) expected higher costs of borrowing in the future. And this rise in the 10 year treasury yield (22:14) causes mortgage rates to rise as well because they have to allow mortgage backed securities to (22:19) compete with the higher yield of the 10 year treasury. So during COVID and really kind of (22:23) even before that, the Fed had kept the Fed funds rate relatively low.

And at the same time they (22:28) were purchasing millions of dollars worth of mortgage backed securities each and every month. (22:33) And that purchasing created artificial demand, which caused yields to fall, which led to mortgage (22:38) rates in the two to 3% range. And that's why unless the Fed goes into buying mortgage backed securities (22:43) again, we're unlikely to see those kinds of rates anytime soon, at least unless there's another (22:48) major economic crisis.

And my guess is that the Fed's likely learned that lowering rates too much (22:54) and injecting that much money into the economy can lead to out of control inflation, which is (22:59) what we've had in a contracting economy, which is what we're seeing. So cheap money was great while (23:04) it lasted, but everything comes with a price and we're paying for it right now. So when the market (23:08) expects or the Fed hints at a rate cut, that cut is often priced into the market before it happens.

(23:15) And that's why often on the day of the Fed's announcement, the market might move very little (23:19) because all the big moves happened before the news was official. Remember markets move on news (23:24) and expectations, not just reality. So will the Fed cutting rates in September help mortgage rates? (23:29) It will.

But does that mean if the Fed cuts rates by 0.25% that mortgage rates will drop by the same (23:34) 0.25% the next day? No. And more than likely that movement was already priced in before that rate (23:40) cut even happened. And one last point on this.

Historically, whenever the Fed begins cutting (23:45) interest rates, a recession often follows soon after. I'm not saying Fed rate cuts trigger a (23:51) recession or that it's even going to happen this time, but interest rates are typically cut in (23:56) response to a weakening economy. And all signs suggest that right now is no different.

So again, (24:02) be careful what you wish for because low interest rates often mean people are struggling with money (24:07) and jobs, which isn't good for anyone. Well, that's it guys. Sorry.

I got this one out a (24:11) little bit late, been a little bit busy around here this week, which is a good thing, but (24:14) little extra time to get this one on the air. This winter's probably going to be a little bit (24:18) of a slow one, but next spring, I think will mark the start of the turnaround for real estate. So (24:23) just hold on a little bit longer.

We are almost out of this until next week. Be great humans. (24:28) Keep grinding because life is what you make it.

So make it great. See you later.